Line!!! Working with actors: The good, the bad and the ugly.

This episode digs into the working relationship between script supervisors and actors. Not just the person to shout lines upon request, script supervisors often serve as the Director or Writer’s ambassador in giving (sometimes unwanted) feedback to actors. Listen in for *lots of tips* on how to handle.

But first, we talk to Margery Kimbrough – an absolutely delightful and funny lady who counts Academy Award Nominees and Emmy and Golden Globe Winners such as Harriet, Fear the Walking Dead and The Good Lord Bird, among the dozens of films and TV shows she has scripted. Since 2005 she has also been script supervising for the fellows at the Sundance Directors Lab and occasionally teaches various aspects of Script Supervising through Cinema Workshops. 

Hosted, Created & Produced by Caryn Ruby

Produced and Edited by Eden Woolworth

Sound Mixer Adam Carl

Original Music by Edith Mudge

Logo design by Sharon Watt

Episode artwork by Ana Ziegler Loes

Transcript

Sharon Watt (00:01)

They’re the unsung heroes on film and TV

Various (00:06)

Script Script Script Supervisor, script, script, script supervisors... the unsung hero...I kinda like that.

Caryn Ruby (00:19)

“Script Supervisors, Unsung Heroes of Film and TV” was created from interviews of over a dozen script supervisors from across the US. Episodes were written and produced by Caryn Ruby and Eden Woolworth. edited by Eden Woolworth and contains original music by Edith Mudge

Margery Kimbrough (00:39)

Most of your day is spent in support of the director.

Barry Caldwell (00:44)

How do you handle a screamer? How do you handle an actor who just refuses to talk to you?

Margery Kimbrough (00:49)

Quit! There's no reason to torture yourself to do your job.

Caryn Ruby (00:53)

The actors are not machines.

Margery Kimbrough (00:55)

If the script is bad, every pass is torture.

Caryn Ruby (01:01)

You're just right in the middle of everything all the time.

Caryn Ruby (01:08)

Today, we talk to Margery Kimbrough who counts Academy Award nominees and Emmy and Golden Globe winners, such as "Harriet", "Fear the Walking Dead" and "The Good Lord Bird" among the dozens of films and TV shows she has scripted. Since 2005, she has also been script supervising for the fellows at Sundance Directors Lab, and occasionally teaches various aspects of script supervising through Cinema Workshops. Today's topic is working with actors - the good, the bad, and the holy *beep*. Welcome to the show, Margery!

Margery Kimbrough (01:44)

Thank you, Caryn.

Caryn Ruby (01:45)

I'm so glad that we're doing this. I first met you, I remember, when you were doing a guest lecture in Randi Feldman's class and I was there and I just thought it was awesome. You had such great things to say about the field and about script supervising in general, and you just, you relayed how much you loved the craft and it was really apparent. And I would love to hear how you got started in becoming a script supervisor.

Margery Kimbrough (02:10)

Yeah, I lecture pretty often at Randi's class. Randi was my teacher and I had been in the theater in one way or another for my entire life, like since I was five. Until I moved to Los Angeles, I moved knowing that I was not going to fundraise for nonprofit theater and dance, because it's hard enough to do when you're in New York where people love the theater, but in Los Angeles, it's sort of the redheaded stepchild and that was just gonna be too hard. So I looked around to do something to earn a living in. I ended up as an assistant at a production company on the Disney lot, and I was really fortunate that they produced three big movies while I was there. And so I really got to see how movies get made and also how to make movies. One of the movies they did was "Crimson Tide" and one of the other assistants and I drove out to San Pedro where they were shooting the scene where Gene Hackman addresses the crew before they boarded the submarine. And this was just enormous. There was a real submarine and there were four rain towers and 200 background and trucks for days, and I looked up and there was a giant crane. The biggest crane I'd ever seen. Normally there's a crane, it's like a tulip crane, or it's a condor that you can fit two people up there. This was like the camera, the director and the operator and the script supervisor. And I thought, this, this is the job for me. I wanna go in the crane. <laugh> of course I've never been in a crane. There's no reason for me to go in a crane, number one. Number two, as a key grip, once pointed out to me, it's not a toy.

Caryn Ruby (03:52)

But they still have big cranes like that? That take people up?

Margery Kimbrough (03:55)

Yes, they do. I mean, you can go up in a condor and on "Fear the Walking Dead," one of the episodes we sent the camera operator and a grip and I think a second? Anyway, there were three people up there in this condor to operate the camera for us for a big stunt. So they still do that. Um, the giant, giant cranes, I have never seen another one.

Caryn Ruby (04:16)

Right, that's like a gazillion bazillion dollars to do that.

Margery Kimbrough (04:20)

I would imagine so, but one of the many wonderful, wonderful things about my job is that I don't have to remember how much cranes cost <laugh>

Caryn Ruby (04:28)

<laugh>.

Margery Kimbrough (04:29)

But the thing about, you know, I wanna be in the crane. It's not just that it's cool to go up in a crane is that she was obviously right in the middle of the soup. You know, that is the best thing about the job, I think is you're just right in the middle of everything all the time, you get to work with every department, you interact with everybody on the set, you're a department head, and yet you never have to worry about personnel issues because you're a department of one.

Caryn Ruby (04:59)

So obviously these are big, amazing, important stories. Is that the most important thing for you is to work on a project that you believe in and you love, or do you take whatever fits in your schedule? Like how does that process work for you?

Margery Kimbrough (05:14)

Are there people I wanna work with? You know, maybe it's a writer I admire or director that I know and love. Kasi Lemmons who directed "Harriet" I had known her for several years. She's an advisor at the Sundance director's lab where I've worked on the crew since 2005, and I would've worked on anything she asked me to. It happened to be a really good script that she wrote. And that's another thing, you know, is the script good? You have to read the script a hundred times, that's an exaggeration probably 30 or 35 times. And if the script is good, that is great. You like sometimes forget while you're reading it this time and you just get absorbed and reading it, you have to go back.

Caryn Ruby (05:55)

That's so nice.

Margery Kimbrough (05:56)

That's amazing and wonderful. If the script is bad, every pass is torture.

Caryn Ruby (06:02)

<laugh>.

Margery Kimbrough (06:03)

Those are the things that are important to me.

Caryn Ruby (06:07)

Awesome. I love that. <laugh> So, I mean, you really get into the story. It sounds like the storytelling is really important to you, and I think being a good storyteller is important to understand story, right? Because that's what we are there for is to help tell this story. And so to that end, what things do you think certain other people on the crew should know about script supervisors in order to maybe work together better or to utilize us in the best way? I think a lot of people maybe think we're just note takers...

Margery Kimbrough (06:44)

Listen, the notes are important. They're what live on in post production after you're gone. But I think it's really only about 15 or 20% of the job. And the rest of the job is interacting with people on set and collecting and delivering the information. Basically I'm the information conduit. I'm the Dixie cup telephone between people. I can field a lot of questions: confirm that this is day two, or does he already have the cut on his head at this point or whatever it is. One of the things directors don't know is how much information I impart that saves them. Cuz people ask them a thousand questions an hour, but it could be 1500 <laugh> you know, if the AD's and I weren't there. So...

Caryn Ruby (07:26)

Right. So basically having the other crew that's there know that you are the keeper of the information and that you are happy to share the information. That's what we're there for. We keep track of the days, what time it is, what's happened before, what's happened after, the emotional arc of the character... Like all these things, right?

Margery Kimbrough (07:49)

Most of your day is spent in support of the director and his, or her vision for what this piece is.

Caryn Ruby (07:58)

Right. You were talking about being on set. And my question for you is what makes it a good day for you on set?

Margery Kimbrough (08:08)

I feel like if you're respected and valued on set as a person and/or a professional, that's the day right there. And you know, if I'm included and I'm able to contribute, then that's frosting.

Caryn Ruby (08:20)

Yeah. What's the worst continuity error you witnessed?

Margery Kimbrough (08:27)

The worst continuity error I ever committed.

Caryn Ruby (08:30)

Oh!

Margery Kimbrough (08:31)

I had done this movie. It was a sort of low budget sci-fi thing, and this was very early on in my career. We had to do some re-shoots and we didn't have the same guys playing the guards that we had had <laugh>

Caryn Ruby (08:44)

Oh, no. <laugh>

Margery Kimbrough (08:45)

I don't know. We must have...back and forth, back and forth. This is a black guy and a white guy, and now we have two white guys and back and forth and back and forth on and on and on blah, blah, blah. It turns out it didn't matter because in the original they'd been wearing helmets like motorcycle helmets that covered their faces. You couldn't tell what race or even what species they were.

Caryn Ruby (09:07)

<Laugh>

Margery Kimbrough (09:07)

So it didn't matter that you had a black guy and a white guy, they were supposed to be wearing helmets and they weren't wearing helmets. And so now they just see...where they come in with helmets and they come out without helmets. And then they run down the hall again in helmets.

Caryn Ruby (09:19)

<laugh>

Margery Kimbrough (09:22)

Fortunately, only one of the nine people who have ever seen this movie noticed.

Caryn Ruby (09:27)

Amazing. <laugh> that's pretty good. That wins. That wins. You're the winner.

Margery Kimbrough (09:34)

Excellent. I will take that booby prize. <laugh> Let me give you another tidbit on set. There's no reason to torture yourself to do your job. And if it's awful, if it's really bad, quit! Or, it will be over in three weeks. But I think there's no excuse for people to scream at each other at work.

Caryn Ruby (09:58)

Boy, do I agree with that.

Margery Kimbrough (10:00)

I actually did one time say to somebody, "There's no call to talk to me like that. Remember, I'm on your side."

Caryn Ruby (10:08)

That is the kindest way I could ever imagine responding to somebody screaming at you. But yeah, I mean, that's a brilliant way to handle it. What was the reaction?

Margery Kimbrough (10:21)

I think he was startled by A) that there was a response and B) that it was mild, but directing his heart. So to be reminded in a moment of stress that you have support is helpful. So, you know, yelling stopped, question began, and I gotta say, you may often be the person who sets the tone on set. If it's not the director or the AD, it's you. So, you know, a certain level of calm - real or imagined is always useful.

Caryn Ruby (10:54)

I love that. And I agree, and that sounds like a perfect place to end. This has been so much fun. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. You contributed so much amazing information, helpful information. Really good. I appreciate you.

Margery Kimbrough (11:11)

Well, thank you. I appreciate you. I was very flattered and honored to be included in the company of fine script supervisors that I know you have interviewed. So I appreciate that a lot.

Caryn Ruby (11:24)

The extraordinary script supervisors on this season include Dawn Gillam who scripted “Black Panther,” “Boyz N the Hood,” “Fences,” “Star Wars Episode IX.” and she also got IMDB to create a new category for script supervisors. Margery Kimbrough has scripted Academy Award nominees and Emmy and Golden Globe winners such as “Harriet,” “Fear the Walking Dead” and “The Good Lord Bird.” Known as the author of the quintessential book "Beyond Continuity: Script Supervision For The Modern Filmmaker," Mary Cybulski has scripted multiple Academy Award and Golden Globe winning films, including “Life of Pi” and “Michael Clayton.” Randi Feldman has taught the craft of script supervising for over 20 years. Her professional credits include the Oscar-Nominated”Mighty Joe Young” and Sundance winner, “Guinevere.” Barry Caldwell scripted on “Beautiful Boy,” “Ugly Betty,” “Key and Peele,” “Queen of the South” and the cult classic “Cabin Fever,” Sharon Watt scripted culture-shifting and award-winning shows “Pose,” “When They See Us,” “Mr. Robot,” “The Americans” and “Boardwalk Empire.” Hannah Driscoll script supervises the Emmy-Nominated series “Pen 15” as well as big budget commercials for well-known brands. Script supervisor on Emmy-Nominated “Dolly Parton's Heartstrings,” “The Originals,” “Ozark,” and “Zombieland 2 Double Tap” Toni Crey. Self-described internet prankster, Nick Robinson, script supervisors commercials starring A-list talent and films that premiere at top tier festivals. In addition to "Script Soup," her book on script supervising, Beatrice Bellino creates experimental films and has scripted Emmy-Award winners “Friday Night Lights,” “Revolution,” and “Fear the Walking Dead.” Shadia Sepehrnia scripted, Lena Waithe's Tribecca Award-Winning series "Girls Room" and also writes and directs. Administrator of Los Angeles Script Supervisors Network Robert Goodwin's credits include the Emmy Award-Winning “Dark/Web” and “Love is Not Love” which snagged over 100 festival wins. And finally multi-talented Roe Mooore scripts everything from films and commercials to live TV, teaches script supervising and is a member of the DGA, Local 871 and Producer's Guild.

Caryn Ruby (13:36)

One of the perks of script supervising is your front row seat to all the action; you're near the director all day in front of monitor, watching the actors and, well, looking for mistakes. When actors flub a line or don't match their action, sometimes it's our job to tell them. And we better know the right way to do it, because there is always a wrong way. And it's different for every actor. Some are prickly or sensitive, or they just may be picking up on your energy. For whatever reason, they're not always receptive to a script supervisor approaching them. In this episode, we'll get some great tips from several top script supervisors in the business, and they'll share unique stories that only they could tell. Here's Dawn Gilliam, Margery Kimbrough, Mary Cybulski, Roe Moore and Barry Caldwell.

Dawn Gilliam (14:29)

One of the things about working with actors, there's some people who act like themselves, and then there are some people who are actors who went to school, trained, they are so delightful to watch. We're staring at 'em, watching how they're moving around so that we can get their actions down. And if they stand up and say a word and you know, that kind of thing, some new actors don't know anything about continuity and matching and rely on us to help them out. Then you have your pros who understand their continuity matching, and they're really good up until a certain hour. Then it's like they start forgetting and they, you know, are looking to you to have their back, especially if they know their shortcomings.

Mary Cybulski (15:13)

And the actors also are not machines, and you don't want to put that pressure on them to be mechanical. They're walking a very, very thin edge of reacting intuitively and planning their performance. It's a really delicate balance for them. And you don't want to push them into mechanics if you don't have to. There's a certain amount you have to do of course, cuz it's a technical medium and all that, but you don't want that to overshadow what we love about it. And when something happens, if you see something go off, if they're just warming up and it's not really a great performance yet, and you know, they're gonna do something better early on, you can say something. I mean, I always go through the director unless I know them really well. And they just tell me to go ahead and talk to them. But if it's something that's very, very delicate, I still go through the director.

Margery Kimbrough (15:59)

If you're working with young actors, your job is sometimes more instructive. When they've blown a line, you might go in and say, it's important to get this line right because it sets up the blah, blah, blah. Whereas, if you're working with more experienced actors or with actors who are in season five or six of a long running television show and they know a hundred times more about their characters and stories than you ever will, then, you might just say, make sure we understand this word. Or you might say, this is the only time in this act that we hear this piece of information so it needs to be precise, and they totally get that. Also know your actors, because they may or may not want feedback. Sometimes they just want the information, just tell them what to do, they'll do it. They know what to do.

Margery Kimbrough (16:48)

Also, you have to arrange your face. Because if you walk onto set looking grim and you're about to give an actor a line, the actor's reaction to that is, "Oh my God, what did I do wrong?" That's 90% of the time you come up to an actor. It's like, "What did I do now?" So half the time I walk up to an actor and I say, you nailed it. They're like, "Oh" you know, "What did I do wrong?" Absolutely nothing. You totally nailed it. I try and walk in with a smile. Maybe not a big, stupid grin, but a pleasant expression on my face so that I'm not a threat. You don't want them to dread your appearance on set. How many other people have to think about that?

Caryn Ruby (17:27)

Right? You don't want them to dread hearing from you, but sometimes a pleasant expression only gets you so far. What are you supposed to do if they disagree with your continuity note or won't even talk to you? Barry and Roe share their top secret tips on how to deal with difficult actors.

Barry Caldwell (17:45)

How do you handle a screamer? How do you handle an actor who just refuses to talk to you? What I prefer to do is create a game of good cop, bad cop, where the writer becomes bad cop. And I can go in with my notes, but blame it on the writer. And most writers are cool with this. And it, it works with most - sorry, actors, if you listen to this, usually it works.

Caryn Ruby (18:03)

<laugh>

Barry Caldwell (18:04)

It's only backfired on me a couple of times. I'm not gonna say who it was, but there's one actor who's very well known who just basically told me, she goes, I know what you're doing. Get away from me. I don't ever wanna see you ever again. If you have a note, Tom can bring it to me. He was the writer. I went back, Tom was laughing his ass off, just falling out of his chair. <laugh> but yeah, Tom became the script supervisor as far as delivering notes to her. And two weeks later he wasn't there. And I went to her and says, can I show you something? She goes, "No."

Caryn Ruby (18:33)

<laugh>

Roe Moore (18:36)

Bruce Campbell in his loud, booming voice is like "Nobody's gonna care about the coffee cup position!" And we both look at him and we're like, cool, but I was just telling about me going bowling? And like, that was a lesson for me, cuz that was, I think my second feature that I had ever done. And it was still in my first year of script supervising. So I was really like, how do I deal with actors that don't like being reminded of continuity and right there was the biggest lesson where I just went, okay, you don't like continuity. I'm just gonna stand back and I will let the director know cuz me and Will have that rapport, and we'll see what happens from there. But yeah, I let Will know, and he's like, "You know, we're just gonna let him do his thing. He's our star in this movie. He's the name. This is why the thing's gonna get sold. So we'll let him do what he's doing."

Caryn Ruby (19:24)

Aha. It's important to understand the politics too, but what should you do if an actor isn't saying their lines? Maybe they're just having an off day, or they actually want to rewrite the script? Here are some proven techniques that can work.

Margery Kimbrough (19:40)

Sometimes they hate the line. Sometimes they just don't wanna say what's on the page. And so sometimes the question is not, can you say this as written, but did you leave this out on purpose? Cause if they did and it's important to them, then you might just not bring it up. And if it's something that's important, the writer producer will tell you, and you have to figure this is gonna be different on every set with every different director, with every different actor. You as the script supervisor, you have a tiny bit of authority there. And if the actor feels strongly about it and nobody else has noticed, and you're pretty sure it's not important, you don't have to bring it up. You don't have to turn to the writer and say this one, precious word of yours. <laugh> and sometimes you just don't know and you have to ask and it's too bad that the actor has to say something they don't wanna say.

Mary Cybulski (20:30)

One time I was on the movie, "The Crucible" and there was a really heated scene between Daniel Day-Lewis and uh, Joan Allen and the line was, Daniel's line was "You would make beer freeze, Elizabeth." And he said, "Elizabeth, you would make beer freeze." And it's not the same. You could go, well, it means the same, but it doesn't have the same rhythm. It's not as strong. And they were in the middle of this incredible performance and I heard it once and I, thought alright next time he's gonna get it right. And I heard it twice and he got it wrong again. And I'm like, oh, I don't wanna bust this up, this is so beautiful. And I just whispered in the director's ear what it was, and shrugged and I went, I don't know? And he went, "Thank you", cuz he recognized that the rhythm was really important. So it's something like that, that, you know, almost any other movie, I wouldn't care where the name came, except that it encompass the power of that moment when it changes the meaning, then you gotta go in. But when it's just changing the power of it, it's a little more fraught.

Barry Caldwell (21:35)

I love when they warn you "CSI," you know, one of the greatest crime shows ever, I worked on a, a lot of that, and every now and then Billy Petersen would just come up with something that was so much better than what was written, but he would never tell anybody, he would just spring it on us. One time he came to me and he just goes, "I'm not gonna say any of this." I was like, well, what are you gonna say? He goes, "Pay attention." But what he came up with was so funny and it was all right, nobody complained. So that, that was a cool one.

Caryn Ruby (22:02)

But sometimes you get to witness first hand some of the most iconic performances of all time. Here's Dawn Gilliam with one of her favorite memories of Chadwick Boseman on the set of "Black Panther."

Dawn Gilliam (22:16)

I have repeat business on actors where I've seen them and we've worked together on different movies, and I first met Chad on the set of "42." And one of my favorite memories of Chad is on the set of "Black Panther," the, um, relationship that he had with the young lady that was his sister. When they did the scene where he comes into her lab and they have this handshake kind of thing. Well, I don't know if they did it in the rehearsal or not, but they definitely did it on screen. They made that up and I thought, oh, that's so cool. That was just so cool. That is what actors do. They go and they really research their part, and they're in the trailer and they're talking and say, "Hey, we should do this" and blah, blah, blah. And that was just one of my favorite moments when I saw that cuz I knew that they created that.

Caryn Ruby (23:09)

So awesome. There's nothing better than being there in person and watching the magic happen. That's it for this episode! Special thanks to all the script supervisors who were featured, and to you, our listener. I hope you had fun and maybe even learned something. “Script Supervisors: Unsung heroes of film & TV” was created and produced by Caryn Ruby in consultation with the Los Angeles Script Supervisors Network. Episodes were edited and produced by Eden Woolworth with original music composed by Edith Mudge. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and give us a rating or leave a comment. And if you know anyone who makes movies without a script supervisor, let them know about us. We are the script supervisor podcast on Instagram.