The Union: To Join or Not To Join? (and how to do it)

This episode addresses some of the misconceptions and misunderstandings around joining and the benefits of being in the union. In addition to our usual group of script supervisors sharing their thoughts and experience, this episode features a special guest from Contract Services who lays out exactly what it takes to get qualified for the union roster.

But first, we talk to Shadia Sepehrnia in another in-person pre-pandemic interview. In addition to her experience as Script Supervisor on Tribeca award-winning short series Girls Room written by Lena Waithe and many films, Shadia counts Producing, Directing and Writing among her many talents.

Hosted, Created & Produced by Caryn Ruby
Produced and Edited by Eden Woolworth
Sound Mixer Adam Carl
Original Music by Edith Mudge

Logo design by Sharon Watt
Episode artwork by Ana Ziegler Loes

Transcript

Sharon Watt (00:01):

Say the unsung heroes on film NTV,

Hannah Driscoll (00:05):

Supervisor, script, supervisor, script supervisors, the

Shadia Sepehrnia (00:13):

Unsung hero,

Hannah Driscoll (00:15):

Kinda

Shadia Sepehrnia (00:15):

Like that.

Caryn Ruby (00:19):

Script supervisors, unsung heroes of film and TV was created from interviews of over a dozen script. Supervisors from across the us episodes were written and produced by Karen Ruby and Eden Woolworth edited by Eden Woolworth and contains original music by Edith much

Shadia Sepehrnia (00:38):

You're always workin' hard and you're taking pictures and you're writing stuff.

Dawn Gilliam (00:42):

Well, you can work 10, 15 years in the non-union world and you walk away with nothing.

Shadia Sepehrnia (00:47):

It was for me, a way of shadowing a director.

Nick Robinson (00:50):

Is this going to cost me 12 grand to get like three days on a union show?

Hannah Driscoll (00:56):

It Would honestly help the next generation of script supervisors move forward.

Shadia Sepehrnia (00:56):

Caryn Ruby (00:58):

There's so many notes.

Shadia Sepehrnia (01:00):

There's so many notes <laugh>.

Caryn Ruby (01:02):

Oh God, the notes.

Shadia Sepehrnia (01:03):

There's so many.

Caryn Ruby (01:09):

In this episode I talk to Shadia Sepehrnia in another in-person pre-pandemic interview. In addition to her experience as script supervisor on Tribeca award-winning short series "Girls Room" written by Lena Waithe, and many films, Shadia counts producing, directing, and writing among her many talents. After the interview, we talk about some of the benefits of joining the union and the reason why some people hesitate to sign up. We also try to clear up some of the misunderstandings people have and learn exactly what it takes to get qualified for the union roster, with a special guest from contract services. So the first thing I wanna talk about is how did you become a script supervisor?

Shadia Sepehrnia (01:56):

Yes. I kind of like accidentally became one, because I was looking for something to do on set. I knew I wanted to be in production. I just wasn't sure how to get there. And so I kind of accidentally got into it because a friend needed either an AD or a script supervisor. And I knew for sure, I didn't wanna be an AD, so I said, "I'll be a script supervisor." And I kind of just learned while I was going, I looked up stuff online I read books, I watched videos every single way I could figure it out. I was just kind of trying to learn on my own. And I loved being on set. I loved the atmosphere. I felt like we were important to the production, even though some people didn't know it. And I liked that and I liked being kind of a band of one and I was like, okay, I'm gonna keep doing this. And I just kept taking more and more gigs and it kind of just built from there.

Caryn Ruby (02:48):

Cool. So you said something really interesting about being a very important part of the production,

Shadia Sepehrnia (02:53):

Yeah.

Caryn Ruby (02:53):

...and that people didn't know. Did you like being important or you liked that people didn't know that you're important.

Shadia Sepehrnia (02:58):

I kind of liked that people didn't know that they needed one. It's kind of like you're in the background, nobody really says anything to you and they kind of let you do your own thing - until they realize, "Oh wait, like what happened here? What about continuity there?" And then the spotlight is on you. And I kind of like that. I'm not an actor. I don't wanna be in the spotlight, but it's nice to have your opinion heard every so often. And especially for a very important part of it, which is post production and editing.

Caryn Ruby (03:25):

So you get to kind of wear a Cape. Like you get to be the hero, you know,

Shadia Sepehrnia (03:30):

Kind of like the unsung hero, you know, like being a little bit in disguise where no one really knows what you do. And almost every set I'm on, what I always hear is, "Oh, I've always wondered what, what a script supervisor does. You're always working hard and you're taking pictures and you're writing stuff, but I have no clue what you're doing."

Caryn Ruby (03:46):

Yeah. I had that experience too, but it was only like my fourth time script supervising. And I was like, okay, well I need X amount of days for prep and X amount of days for wrap. And they were like, "Wait, what?" Record scratch. And I had to educate and explain, "well, this is what I will be doing...

Shadia Sepehrnia (04:03):

Yeah.

Caryn Ruby (04:03):

If you want me to be able to do my job."

Shadia Sepehrnia (04:05):

Yeah. Because you can't just show up and just magically know everything. You need to actually take time with the script and break it down so you know what's going on. A lot of times as a script supervisor, they'll hire you like the day before. You barely have time to prep. It's just that day. And they expect you to know things, and to me I'm like, no, that's not fair.

Caryn Ruby (04:23):

Right. That goes to them not knowing what we do and not understanding

Shadia Sepehrnia (04:28):

Not respecting the craft for sure.

Caryn Ruby (04:30):

Right. I mean, if they think you're just there to take notes to give to the editor, then that explains why they think you can just show up on set the day of, and it's like, "well, we're just getting a secretary. Right?"

Shadia Sepehrnia (04:42):

And it's like, no, no, no, that's not it, because the editor isn't gonna be going through all the notes. We're the one who's digesting the notes and figuring out A, B, C, how does this connect? What are we doing? What's important, what's necessary. So the notes are mostly for us when we're, you know, covering yeah, exactly.

Caryn Ruby (04:58):

Matching action.

Shadia Sepehrnia (04:58):

Yeah, exactly.

Caryn Ruby (04:59):

Right.

Shadia Sepehrnia (05:00):

Yeah. And then the overall reports are for the editors. So that's also what they don't get.

Caryn Ruby (05:05):

Yeah. I didn't realize that that was something that happens often.

Shadia Sepehrnia (05:09):

Yeah.

Caryn Ruby (05:09):

That people are like, "Yeah, what is it that you do?"

Shadia Sepehrnia (05:12):

I always get the whole, "Oh, I've always thought about script supervising. It looks so interesting, but it's just a mystery."

Caryn Ruby (05:18):

So you wanna keep it in a mystery?

Shadia Sepehrnia (05:20):

I think we should shed light, now I think is the time. It's super important so that people know just to make their productions better.

Caryn Ruby (05:29):

Totally. Let's talk about taking notes on set. Are you digital?

Shadia Sepehrnia (05:34):

I'm pen and paper.

Caryn Ruby (05:35):

You're pen and paper.

Shadia Sepehrnia (05:36):

Mm-hmm <affirmative> I started out that way and it was just a good way to learn. And then I haven't made the move yet, because I'm mostly doing short productions. So it's either like web series or short films. Features would be like a whole different kind of thing. I haven't had the chance to work on features yet, which is why I haven't done digital. So it's something that I would definitely consider if given the chance to do features, just because I feel like it would be really hard to do everything pen and paper, especially with breakdowns and reports and things like that. But for now, pen and paper, it's been working for me, taking pictures works for me. You don't, have to worry about the technology or something, not working,

Caryn Ruby (06:15):

But to be clear, are you doing your breakdown by hand on paper or are you doing it on computer?

Shadia Sepehrnia (06:21):

I'm doing it on computer

Caryn Ruby (06:22):

Ah-ha!

Shadia Sepehrnia (06:23):

Yeah, yeah. No, I have to do that because ah, it's too messy, it would be too much. You have to do some part digital just because like, at the end of the day, you have to send your notes to a whole bunch of editors and the production, and so it's just, it's so much easier to just, you know?

Caryn Ruby (06:37):

Yeah. So I think pen and paper is really only referring to actually taking notes actually on set.

Shadia Sepehrnia (06:44):

Yeah.

Caryn Ruby (06:45):

Do you have codes? Like, you know, arrows and this, and swiggles.

Shadia Sepehrnia (06:48):

I do do the arrows and the swiggles and everything. And I even sometimes if we're at a dinner scene or something, I'll do a little sketch. So I know where everyone is and what's supposed to be there. Cause when you flip around, you get confused. You're like, wait a second. Who was there? It completely disorients you. So you need to have notes.

Caryn Ruby (07:04):

Right? I just wanted a little clarity on that because that's one part of the notes. Right? That's the matching action.

Shadia Sepehrnia (07:09):

There's like so many notes

Caryn Ruby (07:10):

There's so many notes.

Shadia Sepehrnia (07:11):

There's so many notes.

Caryn Ruby (07:14):

Oh God, the notes!

Shadia Sepehrnia (07:14):

There's so many, it doesn't end, you could just keep going.

Caryn Ruby (07:18):

But the edit log is important for the editors,

Shadia Sepehrnia (07:21):

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Caryn Ruby (07:22):

That's how they know.

Shadia Sepehrnia (07:23):

That's the most crucial thing is for the editor, like circling takes and knowing what's happening. What does the director want? What kind of performance was this? Some directors will tell me, like write a specific word for the performance. Tone or something that they wanna keep. That's something for the editor to know too. So yeah. I was really afraid at the beginning. I thought I wouldn't get any jobs cuz I'm pen and paper. And I debated a lot. Whether or not I should tell these productions because I was like, oh, okay. If this is like a really high paying job, I should tell them. No one's ever said no to me. But some productions do prefer digital. And I understand it's just their preference.

Caryn Ruby (08:01):

So talk about what producers don't know about script supervisors that they should.

Shadia Sepehrnia (08:07):

Well, I find like people that hire you, like they have a tendency to be kind of harder on you. They're just a lot more critical. They're the ones that are looking over your shoulder to make sure you're doing the right thing. They're the ones that care about the minutiae, this tiny little thing, did it match? Did it not? And you're like, wait, I'm checking for everything. I'm not looking at one thing. So they can be very critical.

Caryn Ruby (08:30):

Interesting.

Shadia Sepehrnia (08:30):

Yeah.

Caryn Ruby (08:31):

Now I know you've also wrote and directed and you've done wardrobe assistant and UPM and art department, you've done like a million things.

Shadia Sepehrnia (08:39):

Yeah, I have. <laugh>

Caryn Ruby (08:42):

Do you wanna do more directing?

Shadia Sepehrnia (08:44):

Yeah. Writing and directing. That's definitely the goal. And the reason why I did do script supervisor is, cuz I thought, "Oh my God, the word script is in it. That's amazing, I'll do anything with a script." And just the idea of holding onto a script, standing next to the director, the actors... It was for me a way of shadowing a director and figuring out, how do they talk to their actors? How do they communicate? What worked, what didn't, and almost on every production I work on, I shadow a director and I watch them and I'll take my own notes and say like, okay, this doesn't work. Don't do that.

Caryn Ruby (09:20):

Awesome. What do you hope people will take away from this podcast?

Shadia Sepehrnia (09:22):

I guess I hope that more people wanna do this. More than anything, I think it's great everyone wants to be a PA, but I mean like let's just move things around a little bit more, and look into being a script supervisor. I feel like it's so much more rewarding. Like the grunt work of being a PA. I'm I just got a PA job so I can tell you this. <laugh>, it's hard because as a PA you're not really involved in the process and if you want to be involved in production and you want to know the creative process and directing and writing and editing - especially editing, I think. If you wanna be an editor, definitely look at script supervising because you get to be on set and you don't just get the footage at the end, you get to figure out what was happening on set. So I just hope more people wanna do it and, and follow up on it and talk to script supervisors and find out how they got there.

Caryn Ruby (10:10):

Awesome. Thank you so much for coming.

Shadia Sepehrnia (10:11):

Yeah, of course.

Caryn Ruby (10:12):

I really appreciate it.

Shadia Sepehrnia (10:13):

Yeah.

Caryn Ruby (10:15):

The extraordinary script supervisors on this season include Don Gillum who scripted black Panther boys in the hood fences star wars episode nine. And she also got IMDB to create a new category for script supervisors. Marjorie Kimbro has scripted academy, award nominees and Emmy and golden globe winners such as Harriet fear, the walking dead and the good Lord bird known as the author of the quintessential book beyond continuity script supervising for the modern filmmaker. Mary Seki has scripted multiple academy award and golden globe winning films, including life of pie. And Michael Clayton. Randy Feldman has taught the craft of script supervising for over 20 years for professional credits include the Oscar nominated mighty Joe Young and Sundance winner. GWE Avir Barry Caldwell scripted on beautiful boy, ugly Betty P and peel queen of the south and the cult classic cabin fever, Sharon Watts, scripted culture shifting and award-winning shows pose.

Caryn Ruby (11:13):

When they see us, Mr. Robot, the Americans and boardwalk empire Hannah Driscoll script supervises the Emmy nominated series 10 15 as well as big budget commercials for well known brands, script supervisor on Emmy nominated Dolly Partons heartstrings, the originals Ozark, and Zombieland two double tab. Tony Craig self described internet prankster, Nick Robinson, script supervisors, commercial starring ALIST talent and films that premiere at top tier festivals. In addition to script Sue her book on script, supervising Beatrice Beano creates experimental films and has scripted Emmy award winners, Friday night lights, revolution and fear. The walking day Shadia Nia scripted Le awaits Tribeca award-winning series girls room and also writes and directs administrator of Los Angeles script supervisors network. Robert Goodwin's credits include the Emmy award-winning dark web and love is not love, which snagged over 100 festival wins. And finally multi-talented RO Mo scripts. Everything from films and commercials to live TV teaches script supervising and is a member of the DGA local 8 71 and producers Guild

Caryn Ruby (12:26):

In the non-union world I've heard some confusion and misinformation about union membership and how to join. So I'm hoping this episode will help clear some of that up. Randi Feldman, Hannah Driscoll, Sharon Watt, Robert Goodwin and Nick Robinson share both union and non-union perspectives on the benefits and drawbacks of membership. Plus, we'll get some great insight from former local 871 President Dawn Gillam. That's the union here in Los Angeles that this group of script supervisors reference - with the exception of Sharon Watt, who is in local 161 in New York. At the end, we'll hear from a very special guest, Brad Wall from contract services, who will demystify the process of getting and staying on the industry experience roster, which is required for work on union productions. So first of all, why would you want to be in the union?

Dawn Gilliam (13:22):

I think the benefits of being in a union is that collective bargaining, especially if you're in the non-union world, you can see how low the wages are, and how they just barely are living wage wages on some of the things. Unfortunately, that's what they do. They just try to lowball you. They want a high quality product, but they don't wanna pay the workers. And that's where the union steps in. So that would be one reason why non-union script supervisors should try to get in the union because you are getting less than, just know that, you're getting less than. And if this is going to be your craft. So let's say for 10 to maybe 20 years, you could be earning a pension. And then if you're consistently working, then you have health and your medical, that's important. Well, you can work 10, 15 years in the non-union world and you walk away with nothing.

Randi Feldman (14:15):

Once I got into the union, it was great. I loved it because of the fact that people were protecting you, and you got really good pay, and people that you got to know could bring you on as their 2nd or their visual effects. You work around other people who are also accelerated and they are working every day to improve themselves. And it gets, it gets really, really fun and interesting to be on more interesting projects, with more money and more talent. It, it, it is really great.

Caryn Ruby (14:45):

That sounds awesome. But what are the drawbacks? What's keeping experienced script supervisors from joining?

Nick Robinson (14:56):

I'm in favor of unions in general, but I haven't had the financials laid out to me to where it looks like such a great deal. Problem is number one, the initiation is so high. And then you talk to other departments who have lower initiations, who are guaranteed more money. Cuz everyone tells me that you join, you pay the initiation, but you're not gonna get any union work for at least a year. And I've heard stories of longer, and they're paying dues the entire time and they're not getting the benefits. And it's just like, wait, so is this gonna, cost me 12 grand to get like three days on a union show, you know? It makes it really hard when you see people report union violations on union shows with regards to our department and nothing happens. Also just that whole thing where it's like, we're gonna kick you off of health insurance if you don't work enough days. It's like, if you are not working enough days, you're in dire straits. You're worried for other reasons, to get that health insurance threat is just another kick in the pants.

Caryn Ruby (16:05):

Another valid complaint is that once you finally get in the union, there isn't enough work. So you are forced to continue working non-union

Sharon Watt (16:14):

In that sense, the union recognizes that the number of script supervisors is not proportionate to the amount of jobs that's available, you know? So they sort of take an attitude where you gotta do what you gotta do, you know? You gotta live, everyone has to make their own personal choice on these things. And if you do work non-union, it would be prudent just to check in with the union and just let them know.

Robert Goodwin (16:36):

There's a lot of script supervisors and not as many jobs as they need. So the only way people can really survive sometimes is working non-union things mixed in.

Sharon Watt (16:47):

Our union, 161, understands that the climate of the industry is that there's just not enough work for everyone...Especially for script supervisors, because on any project - even if it's a really huge project, there really is just like one script supervisor. You know, unless you have a really massive project and you have multiple units. And then of course, you know, you're gonna have like different script supervisors for the different units, action units, VFX unit, whatever, you know. But there's, there's just like, you know, on any one project, there's just like one script supervisor being hired, as opposed to say the camera department or the Grip & Electric department where, you know, you can have a whole team of people. And then there's certain days where, you know, you'll have a whole team just to pre-rig stuff or there'll be multiple camera days where you bring in like multiple teams and multiple people, you know.

Caryn Ruby (17:32):

Because this craft is so multifaceted and shooting with multiple cameras is commonplace, there is a growing discussion within the community advocating for more script supervisors on set and splitting responsibilities, especially since every other department allows for a team. To hear more about that, check out the episode, topic, "A little bit of history and a look to the future." For now, Hannah's got some great suggestions for the union.

Hannah Driscoll (18:01):

I think that it should possibly be our union's undertaking to streamline stuff. I feel like we should have standardized forms, standardized abbreviation, standardized ways of getting this information to people, all the way down to how do you deliver your notes at the end of the night. You know, it's not necessarily like forcing you to go digital or keeping you handwritten, cuz I do believe in the integrity of both. But I do think that at the end of the day, having to figure out stuff like, "What software should I use?" Or, "Oh, I had no idea I had to do a facing page and an editing log!" Which on the outside look very similar, but they're not. Making sure you run the right reports at the end of the night, make sure you're paying attention to the certain details, and I do think that going forward, our union possibly would- it would be helpful if they took that over. If anything, just offering an introductory course to being like, "Hey, this is a standard that we could all use." It would honestly help the next generation of script supervisors move forward.

Dawn Gilliam (18:53):

We have got to create a course or a class or something that when you go from the non-union sector to the union sector, that we can bring you up to speed, because we are moving fast over here.

Caryn Ruby (19:06):

I think that would be amazing. One thing that scares a lot of people from joining is the significant initiation fee. Here's some very inside information from Dawn.

Dawn Gilliam (19:17):

As far as the initiation fees - there's always a fee to everything, and I do believe you can write that off. And then also we've been very mindful lately in local 871 about the initiation fees and I believe they came down. And it wasn't because we were trying to hike it up, it was written in our bylaws that it would increase every three years and just didn't have an eye on it. And then once we found out that it was exorbitant, then, we were doing a big bylaws overhaul, you know, just to update. And then also, no one promises you work. But a lot of times people think that you get into the union and the union promises you work. Well, they do have an availability list and they also have a subscription to production news so that you can, you know, see what's coming up and everything else like that. You know, you have your discount in IMDB pro so that you be within the industry. And, but no one nowhere can promise you work. You have to get your own work. But the union work is at least at a higher price, it's put into your pension, and you're putting into your Motion Picture Health, you know, which is one of the better health insurances, you know, in the country.

Caryn Ruby (20:23):

This last interview was conducted in August of 2021. During the coronavirus pandemic, when the entire office of Contract Services was working remotely, depending on when you're hearing this, that may or may not still be the case. Here's Brad with a step by step process to getting listed on the Industry Experience Roster, as well as some common missteps and misconceptions.

Brad Wall (20:48):

The industry experience roster - it's basically like a list, and it shows people who are compliant with their safety training and who've met the day requirement. I'm sure that you can start that process to join the local without being on the roster, however, being on the roster is gonna be one of the big things you're gonna need to do if you actually do wanna work union shoots and union jobs. And so, they kind of go hand in hand, but we are not the local. So people wanting to join the local, that that's a conversation they have to have with the local. They have to go through that. Then when the local tells you to get on the roster, that's when we would tap in. The hoops, you would need to go through to get on the roster for a script supervisor, we have to work a certain amount of days. But it could be either 30 union days within like the past 365 or 100 non-union days within the past two years. Those hundred days, those could be union and/or non-union days.

Brad Wall (21:43):

So if you have 10 union days, 90 non-union days, that could count to your 100 bucket. If you're on a project that flips, then those days worked would count for your union days. If it's non-union stuff you're doing, reporting that could be a little more complicated - just based upon what the project was, how you're paid, how the letters come...You have to have proof of payment with employment verification letters, and that could get tricky sometimes. With non-union time, you're - when you're reporting it - there's several things that could go wrong. You have to be paid at least minimum wage. So if you got paid less than minimum wage, those days would not count. And that's like, you know, California minimum wage. Also, with stuff that's out of state, those could also not count. That's not a hundred percent of the time, but that is something that can happen.

Brad Wall (22:30):

And also a lot of times people - they'll submit their employment verification letters, but they won't have proof of payment, or they'll just submit proof of payment and they won't have the employment verification letters. And a lot of times that could be because the production company that they worked for just doesn't exist anymore. You know, things could come, things could go, or like it was a very small production and they just don't have the contact information for the person who paid so like just, there's a, a lot of things like that. So my advice would be,if you know you're gonna be reporting non-union time, you wanna make sure you're taking care of your employment verification letters, taking care of that stuff, as you go along. Get that rolling cuz a lot of times people will wait and try to do it all on the back end, and then you end up scrambling, trying to get in contact with people who you haven't talked to in like a year or so, and it just becomes a nightmare then. And so yeah, I would say if you know you're gonna be trying to get on the roster, you're gonna try to get in the local, while you're actually like, you know working, while you're getting paid, go ahead and get that employment verification letter filled out, signed, then get that to us. You can find a template on our website that you can use for an employment verification letter, csatf.org. And also, your proof of payment. You could take a picture of the check, anything like that, get that to us. And you can just email that to us as well. Currently we're completely remote. Our offices are still not open to the public, so it would all be done online.

Brad Wall (23:54):

I know, for a lot of people who do try to reach us, it does seem like an impossible task, especially since we are all working remote. It's because there are just literally, you know, thousands and thousands of people submitting stuff that have to all be reviewed. You have like, you know, 12 people trying to cover thousands. So when we do say that there is a four to six week processing time, it's not because we don't want to look at people's stuff, it's not because you're being ignored, it's just literally because the ratio of prospects who want to get on the roster to roster specialists is very high. So, submit days while you're working - you don't have to wait until you have your full 30 or your full 100. Just submit days as you get them just to get that process rolling, because it is a four to six week process for your stuff to get reviewed from the first day it gets seen. And then also, you are eligible to take your initial like safety classes, the safety aid classes, the harassment prevention, take the COVID class. We'll send you an email that has like the instructions, how to do that, with the information you'll need to access that. Once you're on the roster, just take the very, very, very small steps you would need to do to make sure you stay on the roster. Don't fall off the roster because you didn't do like one mandatory harassment prevention class every two years.

Caryn Ruby (25:09):

And there you have it. I hope that helps. If you have any questions about the Industry Experience Roster, all the information is on contract services website, www.csatf.org, and you can reach local 871 at IAlocal871.org. The website for 61 is local161.org for information on the IATSE 2021 basic agreement go to basicagreement.iatse.net.

Caryn Ruby (25:42):

That's it for this episode, special, thanks to all the script supervisors who were featured and to you, our listener, I hope you had fun. And maybe even learned something. Script supervisors, unsung heroes of film and TV was created and produced by Karen Ruby in consultation with the Los Angeles script supervisors network episodes were edited and produced by Eden Woolworth with original music composed by Edith much, please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and give us a rating or leave a comment. And if you know anyone who makes movies without a script supervisor, let them know about us. We are the script supervisor podcast on Instagram.